Energy – Interview

Interview with Manfred Remmel

Manfred Remmel: The motto of the campaign is Imagine. In other words, we're talking about visions here, which means not everything can necessarily be realized immediately in such form. But everything in the commercials also has a concrete and serious background. We believe in this technology, and it's our aim to prove that it's also marketable.

What kind of time scale are we talking about here?

Five to ten years.

A range of factors will play a role. To begin with, the European energy market will open up. This started a few years ago with the electricity market. Gas will follow. The pace and scope of liberalization could, however, vary considerably from one EU country to another. And it's important not to forget the impact of environmental legislation in some countries, such as Germany. I'm thinking specifically here about legislation on renewable energy and the law to promote combined heat and power (CHP) generation. As far as this law is concerned, we welcome the fact that the scope of the legislation has now been extended to cover not only subsidies for new and existing plants using conventional technologies, but also targeted support for new technologies such as the fuel cell. We'll soon see whether this level of support is enough to keep pace with the technical and economical developments in fuel cell technology elsewhere throughout the world.

What's the most promising approach to the question of power supply in the future?

Over the next 20 to 30 years, I would like to see a major increase in the proportion of power produced on a decentralized basis. Such distributed power systems should involve energy generated from natural gas and in any location where it makes sense to have a combined heat and power plant. At the same time, centralized large-scale power generation will continue to play a very important role. Although once again, efficiency and environmental compatibility will remain crucial areas requiring optimization.

What's your definition of decentralized power generation?

Power generation is decentralized when an industrial, commercial or private customer—or a municipal utility—produces power and heat on a CHP basis. Naturally, for economic reasons and to ensure supply security, these utilities are also hooked up to the local grid.

Fuel cell technology, in particular, has major potential here. It's conceivable that we will see larger plants with a generating capacity ranging from 200 kW to 1 or 2 MW—if necessary, by combining several plants. Such systems could cover the needs of industrial and commercial customers as well as large residential or office complexes. On a smaller scale (three to ten kilowatts), there are also plans to produce plants for private customers. These would supply either a single residence or an apartment house.

How much power do you estimate will be generated on a decentralized basis by 2015, and how much of it will come from fuel cells?

The proportion of distributed power generation will more or less double in Germany—rising from 15 % today to around 30 %. This will include large CHP plants as well as smaller block-type thermal power stations. We believe that by 2015, it will be possible to use fuel cells to produce around one-third of all the power generated on a decentralized basis. That adds up to around 10 % of total power generation in Germany. There will also be growth in wind power and photovoltaic generation. However, we believe the biggest potential lies with the fuel cell, and that's where we're going to be concentrating our efforts.

The answer lies in improved efficiency and enhanced environmental compatibility. For example, supplying a single residence with power and heat in this way will cut CO2 emissions for that residence by around 30 % compared to conventional generation techniques. With fuel cell plants, which by their very nature generate combined heat and power, it's possible to achieve an overall efficiency of up to 85 %. On the basis of the 10 % share of total power generation I just mentioned plus a corresponding utilization of the associated heat, it will be possible in Germany to achieve a major reduction in CO2 emissions just by using fuel cells. That's one very good reason why we should be thinking about targeting more government support at this technology.

What kind of government support do you have in mind?

The question is whether we in Europe might not need some kind of start-up support when the fuel cell has reached technical maturity, but is not yet ready for market launch from an economical point of view.

How important a factor is cost for the future of fuel cell technology?

It will be decisive. With building-based systems, for example, the maximum permissible cost is around 1,300 € per installed kilowatt generating capacity. With larger plants, the limit is only 1,100 €. We're still a long way from achieving such levels, irrespective of whether we're talking about the molten carbonate fuel cell (MCFC), the solid oxide fuel cell (SOFC) or the polymer-electrolyte membrane (PEM) fuel cell. After all, at this stage of development, we're still only dealing with prototypes.

What other uses will fuel cells have aside from decentralized power generation?

Lots. They could be used in cell phones, for example, or to provide an uninterrupted source of power. Fuel cells could also be used at airports to supply aircraft with electricity or in saltwater desalination plants. There's a whole range of applications for each type and size of fuel cell.

Realistically speaking, when will you be able to start tapping this market potential?

Around 2005, but it depends very much on when the individual systems are ready to go into mass production and be launched on the market.

Experts assume that the fuel cell will be first launched in the U.S.

I certainly wouldn't rule that out, especially considering the level of support for this technology provided by the U.S. government. This allows companies to plan for the future and helps speed up the targeted development of the technology.

Will RWE be present in the U.S. when this happens?

In the building-based power supply systems sector, we're looking to collaborate with Nuvera, a company with headquarters in Italy and the U.S. And we're also currently testing larger SOFC systems with Siemens Westinghouse and MCFC systems with MTU. As far as future marketing opportunities in the U.S. are concerned, we'll be keeping a close eye on developments and making a decision in good time.

RWE has a multi-utility approach. What kind of decentralized services are you going to be providing in the future here?

It's clear that if we don't get into distributed power generation, others will. That's why we prefer to be at the forefront of this movement. For example, we can supply a house or office with the full range of utility services—customers can leave everything up to us. In line with a contracting or operating model, for instance, we can take over the complete spectrum of services. In other words, the customer gets power, heat, air-conditioned office space and much more, all for a fixed price.

Independent of developments in fuel cell technology, gas is playing an increasingly important role in the power industry. That's because oil and coal resources are so limited. For this reason alone, gas is an essential part of our core business.

Looking further ahead, what will our energy supply mix look like by 2050?

That's a long way off, but I believe—as do many experts—that if we think in terms of that kind of time-span, we've also got to take into account the end of the fossil fuel era. In that sense, the fuel cell may well be an important transitional technology on the way to the solar age—an age in which the so-called hydrogen economy could then establish itself as well.

How far away are we from a hydrogen economy?

If we're talking about self-sufficient ways of providing power and heat/refrigeration, then using photovoltaic technology in combination with electrolysis to produce hydrogen for a fuel cell plant already represents an interesting option. And if you want to see exactly how it works, just take a look at this little model here on my desk. A solar cell generates hydrogen from water, and a small fuel cell then converts the hydrogen into electricity, which in turn powers the ventilator on the desk.

Does that mean you're self-sufficient?

At least as far as the air quality at my desk is concerned!

Interview by Norbert Aschenbrenner